1 00:00:11,770 --> 00:00:09,760 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:14,860 --> 00:00:11,780 with investigative journalist will store 3 00:00:18,550 --> 00:00:14,870 about his books will store versus the 4 00:00:21,070 --> 00:00:18,560 supernatural and the unpaid adventures 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:21,080 with the enemies of science all those 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:22,970 prejudices and all those biases which 7 00:00:27,850 --> 00:00:25,730 kind of lead everybody no matter who 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:27,860 they are me and you included sometimes 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:29,930 down wrong alleys and wrong Alice that 10 00:00:34,780 --> 00:00:32,570 can seem absolutely real it can seem we 11 00:00:36,910 --> 00:00:34,790 are convinced we are right we are 12 00:00:39,099 --> 00:00:36,920 convinced the other person is lying or 13 00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:39,109 biased or whatever and you know we're 14 00:00:43,090 --> 00:00:40,910 wrong and that and we're all guilty that 15 00:00:44,709 --> 00:00:43,100 at some point in our lives so how do we 16 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:44,719 sort it out I mean what did you come 17 00:00:49,389 --> 00:00:46,730 away with at the end of the day as some 18 00:00:54,549 --> 00:00:49,399 of the big takeaways in terms of how we 19 00:00:56,259 --> 00:00:54,559 get at the truth well I mean boring as 20 00:00:58,299 --> 00:00:56,269 it sounds you know this i mean the 21 00:01:00,160 --> 00:00:58,309 scientific method is that is that thing 22 00:01:01,779 --> 00:01:00,170 that the kind of humanity has come 23 00:01:04,119 --> 00:01:01,789 across is that method that humanity has 24 00:01:07,149 --> 00:01:04,129 come across too and you know it's not a 25 00:01:09,130 --> 00:01:07,159 clean perfect engine it moves forward in 26 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:09,140 this kind of bad tempered mode of 27 00:01:12,820 --> 00:01:11,210 crotchety consensus and sometimes it has 28 00:01:15,790 --> 00:01:12,830 to have reversals and you know it's not 29 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:15,800 it's a difficult thing but it works you 30 00:01:20,830 --> 00:01:18,110 know on in that great macro view it 31 00:01:22,060 --> 00:01:20,840 works it works in terms of breaking that 32 00:01:23,470 --> 00:01:22,070 you know in breaking down those 33 00:01:24,790 --> 00:01:23,480 prejudice breaking down this bass he's 34 00:01:25,990 --> 00:01:24,800 breaking down those people who have 35 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:26,000 those wrong alleys I mean it said the 36 00:01:41,340 --> 00:01:28,610 scientific method was stay with us for a 37 00:01:45,190 --> 00:01:43,630 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 38 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:45,200 controversial science with leading 39 00:01:49,809 --> 00:01:47,810 researchers thinkers and their critics 40 00:01:51,580 --> 00:01:49,819 i'm your host Alex Karras and on this 41 00:01:54,309 --> 00:01:51,590 episode of skeptic oh I have a really 42 00:01:58,059 --> 00:01:54,319 great interview with investigative 43 00:02:00,099 --> 00:01:58,069 journalist and author will store if you 44 00:02:03,279 --> 00:02:00,109 haven't heard of will and his books 45 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:03,289 before I think you'll really enjoy his 46 00:02:08,830 --> 00:02:06,170 approach to these topics these forbidden 47 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:08,840 topics that we delve into here on 48 00:02:13,660 --> 00:02:12,170 skeptic oh but before we get to that 49 00:02:16,390 --> 00:02:13,670 interview I want to make just a couple 50 00:02:18,610 --> 00:02:16,400 of really quick announcements a couple 51 00:02:22,770 --> 00:02:18,620 of listeners have pointed me to this 52 00:02:26,259 --> 00:02:22,780 really really interesting free online 53 00:02:27,850 --> 00:02:26,269 parapsychology course that you can check 54 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:27,860 out we'll have a link to in the show 55 00:02:32,830 --> 00:02:30,530 notes so really really top-notch people 56 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:32,840 have been involved in putting together 57 00:02:38,589 --> 00:02:36,410 this very impressive course and you can 58 00:02:40,900 --> 00:02:38,599 check it out for free we'll have a link 59 00:02:44,349 --> 00:02:40,910 to that and just one more thing one of 60 00:02:47,650 --> 00:02:44,359 our former guests rd6 killer Clark who 61 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:47,660 wrote a really amazing book about alien 62 00:02:54,430 --> 00:02:50,810 encounters with American Indians has 63 00:02:57,509 --> 00:02:54,440 written a new book sky people untold 64 00:03:01,690 --> 00:02:57,519 stories of alien encounters in 65 00:03:03,940 --> 00:03:01,700 Mesoamerica and that is out now or will 66 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:03,950 be out next week and she dropped me a 67 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:05,690 note and asked me if I'd mentioned that 68 00:03:09,509 --> 00:03:08,090 nice certainly will I I enjoyed when she 69 00:03:12,879 --> 00:03:09,519 came on the show and she certainly has a 70 00:03:14,770 --> 00:03:12,889 interesting interesting perspective and 71 00:03:17,020 --> 00:03:14,780 tells some great accounts on that so 72 00:03:20,020 --> 00:03:17,030 check that out if you're interested as 73 00:03:23,490 --> 00:03:20,030 well but now let's get on to today's 74 00:03:25,839 --> 00:03:23,500 interview my dialogue with wills door 75 00:03:28,930 --> 00:03:25,849 today we welcome journalist and author 76 00:03:31,659 --> 00:03:28,940 will store to skeptic Oh with books like 77 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:31,669 wills store versus the supernatural and 78 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:34,370 which will personally investigated all 79 00:03:39,030 --> 00:03:37,250 manners of paranormal phenomena that 80 00:03:42,849 --> 00:03:39,040 we're going to want to talk to about and 81 00:03:46,030 --> 00:03:42,859 the unpersuaded adventures with the 82 00:03:48,969 --> 00:03:46,040 enemies of science where we'll sat down 83 00:03:50,379 --> 00:03:48,979 with new earth creationist and climate 84 00:03:51,750 --> 00:03:50,389 change deniers in an effort to 85 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:51,760 understand 86 00:03:58,380 --> 00:03:55,000 I we all seem to believe the things that 87 00:04:01,289 --> 00:03:58,390 we believe well with these books will is 88 00:04:04,949 --> 00:04:01,299 a perfect guess for skeptic oh I think 89 00:04:07,550 --> 00:04:04,959 he's attempted to in my view can walk 90 00:04:10,710 --> 00:04:07,560 this razor's edge of balancing 91 00:04:13,470 --> 00:04:10,720 rationality with that which doesn't fit 92 00:04:16,020 --> 00:04:13,480 so easily with our understanding of 93 00:04:17,430 --> 00:04:16,030 reality will it's really a pleasure to 94 00:04:20,189 --> 00:04:17,440 have you on thanks so much for joining 95 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:20,199 me now as a pleasure thanks asking Alex 96 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:23,289 well you know I've been looking forward 97 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:25,840 to this and you know where I've thought 98 00:04:31,409 --> 00:04:28,930 we might start will naturally is tell 99 00:04:32,969 --> 00:04:31,419 people a little bit about yourself and a 100 00:04:35,909 --> 00:04:32,979 little bit more about these books that i 101 00:04:39,770 --> 00:04:35,919 just mentioned yeah so I've been um I've 102 00:04:42,270 --> 00:04:39,780 been a journalist for 14 years now and 103 00:04:44,129 --> 00:04:42,280 the first book you mentioned I wrote 104 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:44,139 when I was in my twenties is getting off 105 00:04:47,550 --> 00:04:46,150 at 10 years old now she's baking for 106 00:04:49,290 --> 00:04:47,560 very old now's as you say will store 107 00:04:52,469 --> 00:04:49,300 versus the supernatural and that 108 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:52,479 followed kind of an experience I had one 109 00:04:58,350 --> 00:04:54,330 of the first stories ever did actually 110 00:05:00,240 --> 00:04:58,360 as a journalist and I kind of found this 111 00:05:02,250 --> 00:05:00,250 website for this guy called Lou Gentilly 112 00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:02,260 who called herself a demonologist and 113 00:05:06,830 --> 00:05:04,449 you know he went he go he was based in 114 00:05:09,689 --> 00:05:06,840 Philadelphia and he would go around 115 00:05:11,010 --> 00:05:09,699 people who had said they lived in 116 00:05:15,659 --> 00:05:11,020 haunted houses in sort of gathering 117 00:05:17,610 --> 00:05:15,669 evidence things like EVP you know ghost 118 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:17,620 lights these kinds of things and I got 119 00:05:20,339 --> 00:05:18,970 to pitch this story thinking it's just 120 00:05:22,140 --> 00:05:20,349 going to be hilarious this guy was going 121 00:05:24,450 --> 00:05:22,150 to be you know a bit of an object of a 122 00:05:26,430 --> 00:05:24,460 kind of ridicule if I'm honest but of 123 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:26,440 course I went along and spent three days 124 00:05:31,379 --> 00:05:28,630 absolutely scared witless I mean 125 00:05:33,930 --> 00:05:31,389 everything he said was going to happen 126 00:05:35,399 --> 00:05:33,940 actually happened and I remember sort of 127 00:05:36,570 --> 00:05:35,409 going back to my hotel a sort of four in 128 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:36,580 the morning after the first night with 129 00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:38,409 him and literally not wanting to turn 130 00:05:42,330 --> 00:05:40,270 the lights off because I oh it's so 131 00:05:45,060 --> 00:05:42,340 terrified so that obviously I mean that 132 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:45,070 was a Kyrie alee really me up when 133 00:05:48,210 --> 00:05:46,930 I was always been an atheist it's 134 00:05:50,550 --> 00:05:48,220 brought up in a very strict Catholic 135 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:50,560 household and even Aaron Bruno sort of 136 00:05:53,670 --> 00:05:52,060 being at Catholic school in our sort of 137 00:05:56,210 --> 00:05:53,680 seven or eight and being told the story 138 00:05:59,010 --> 00:05:56,220 of Jesus and thinking this is obviously 139 00:06:02,040 --> 00:05:59,020 nonsan thinkig you know like Mary's 140 00:06:04,020 --> 00:06:02,050 pregnant right but since she's saying 141 00:06:05,050 --> 00:06:04,030 that she didn't sleep with him my 142 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:05,060 husband 143 00:06:07,990 --> 00:06:06,290 you know that was always I just thought 144 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:08,000 is it instinctively it's been my thing 145 00:06:11,890 --> 00:06:09,770 and this really shook me up you know 146 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:11,900 really shoot me up and so will store 147 00:06:15,220 --> 00:06:13,610 verses of natural you know he's the 148 00:06:16,659 --> 00:06:15,230 story I spent a year basically hanging 149 00:06:19,270 --> 00:06:16,669 out with people who believe in ghosts 150 00:06:20,890 --> 00:06:19,280 but it's that's that's a style that you 151 00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:20,900 follow I mean I think it's really cool I 152 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:23,000 mean you're like an embedded journalist 153 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:24,410 you know we always hear that term in the 154 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:26,270 war correspondent I mean and there's a 155 00:06:30,190 --> 00:06:27,770 long tradition of that but I really like 156 00:06:32,860 --> 00:06:30,200 the way that you do that and the way you 157 00:06:34,570 --> 00:06:32,870 bring yourself both into the story but 158 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:34,580 managed to kind of pull yourself back 159 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:36,710 out a little bit too and that's been 160 00:06:40,870 --> 00:06:38,810 your that's been your style all along 161 00:06:42,430 --> 00:06:40,880 right even with your subsequent books i 162 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:42,440 know i know it is with the unpersuaded 163 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:44,930 well or the heretics as it's known in 164 00:06:49,870 --> 00:06:47,690 the UK yeah yeah absolutely i mean i 165 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:49,880 think you know i think this is you know 166 00:06:54,490 --> 00:06:52,490 there are a few pianist in britain 167 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:54,500 anywhere who do this kind of thing and 168 00:06:56,980 --> 00:06:55,430 they're very good at it and have the 169 00:06:58,450 --> 00:06:56,990 right you know that you know i don't 170 00:07:00,070 --> 00:06:58,460 disparage them even slightly because 171 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:00,080 they're you know that they're better 172 00:07:04,690 --> 00:07:02,210 than me in a lot of ways but one of the 173 00:07:06,490 --> 00:07:04,700 things that I kind of feel about people 174 00:07:07,780 --> 00:07:06,500 who do this kind of stuff is that it I 175 00:07:10,330 --> 00:07:07,790 some just worried about their motives 176 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:10,340 you know like I was genuinely interested 177 00:07:14,260 --> 00:07:11,810 in people who believe in ghosts I was 178 00:07:15,670 --> 00:07:14,270 genuinely unsure whether ghost existed 179 00:07:17,710 --> 00:07:15,680 if the phenomena did exist if it was 180 00:07:20,110 --> 00:07:17,720 real what was it it was a sincere 181 00:07:22,060 --> 00:07:20,120 attempt at finding the truth it wasn't 182 00:07:24,250 --> 00:07:22,070 he started off as a cynical X lies in 183 00:07:25,630 --> 00:07:24,260 making fun of somebody I mean that's the 184 00:07:29,170 --> 00:07:25,640 sad truth but it ended up being much 185 00:07:31,810 --> 00:07:29,180 more much more serious kind of journey 186 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:31,820 although kalahasti in places and even 187 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:33,320 more so with young persuadable zai mean 188 00:07:37,659 --> 00:07:35,570 that you know that kind of deepens the 189 00:07:39,460 --> 00:07:37,669 search I mean I'm 10 years older so 190 00:07:42,250 --> 00:07:39,470 taking these things a bit more seriously 191 00:07:44,469 --> 00:07:42,260 and that um you know that's that that's 192 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:44,479 also about people who believe things 193 00:07:48,340 --> 00:07:46,310 that go kind of against the orthodoxy in 194 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:48,350 some way and as you mentioned 195 00:07:50,950 --> 00:07:49,310 introduction you know whether that be 196 00:07:53,620 --> 00:07:50,960 sort of new earth creationists or people 197 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:53,630 who believe that schizophrenias are made 198 00:07:57,670 --> 00:07:56,090 up you know it's not a real disease and 199 00:07:58,900 --> 00:07:57,680 that people who hear voices are not 200 00:08:00,730 --> 00:07:58,910 actually sick they just have a different 201 00:08:04,180 --> 00:08:00,740 way of experiencing the world you know 202 00:08:05,710 --> 00:08:04,190 all kinds of groups that go against the 203 00:08:07,629 --> 00:08:05,720 orthodoxy in some way you know and it 204 00:08:08,890 --> 00:08:07,639 was an investigation if you know and 205 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:08,900 getting any goes back to my childhood my 206 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:10,970 dad I didn't go to university I'm really 207 00:08:16,270 --> 00:08:13,370 badly educated for my Devon to Oxford 208 00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:16,280 you know and he is growing up I used to 209 00:08:18,710 --> 00:08:18,020 kind of see him as this kind of amazing 210 00:08:21,290 --> 00:08:18,720 towering 211 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:21,300 intellect and yet it's believed in the 212 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:24,090 Christmas story and you know Jesus and 213 00:08:27,170 --> 00:08:25,710 he actually believes he still believes 214 00:08:29,750 --> 00:08:27,180 the devil is a real thing kind of 215 00:08:32,029 --> 00:08:29,760 prancing about the world making people 216 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:32,039 do evil things I mean it's crazy in my 217 00:08:35,810 --> 00:08:33,810 head and that's always a weird thing I 218 00:08:37,909 --> 00:08:35,820 think I know my problem with a lot the 219 00:08:39,560 --> 00:08:37,919 skeptical movement which I kind of came 220 00:08:40,790 --> 00:08:39,570 across for the first time when I was 221 00:08:43,219 --> 00:08:40,800 researching my ghost but was is that 222 00:08:44,990 --> 00:08:43,229 they you know they they have this kind 223 00:08:47,180 --> 00:08:45,000 of idea that people who believe in 224 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:47,190 things that go against your third oxia 225 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:49,260 somehow stupid and and you know I've 226 00:08:53,150 --> 00:08:51,450 been I've met an awful lot of these 227 00:08:54,980 --> 00:08:53,160 people probably a lot more than most of 228 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:54,990 the people who hang out in these 229 00:08:59,210 --> 00:08:56,970 skeptical circles and they're not stupid 230 00:09:01,520 --> 00:08:59,220 like they're not stupid and to call them 231 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:01,530 stupid is it's an intellectual dead end 232 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:04,110 for me it's boring you know yeah okay so 233 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:05,490 there might be wrong about some things 234 00:09:10,130 --> 00:09:08,910 but you know it doesn't necessarily mean 235 00:09:13,610 --> 00:09:10,140 they're stupid and the interesting i'm 236 00:09:14,810 --> 00:09:13,620 not so sure I'm no IIIi hear where 237 00:09:17,090 --> 00:09:14,820 you're coming from and I think that 238 00:09:20,660 --> 00:09:17,100 feeling of or that willingness to be 239 00:09:22,250 --> 00:09:20,670 open in respectful is important and to 240 00:09:24,470 --> 00:09:22,260 hear people's stories that's something 241 00:09:28,190 --> 00:09:24,480 else I've heard you emphasizes that we 242 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:28,200 have to kind of separate out people's 243 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:29,910 own stories because we all have our 244 00:09:34,130 --> 00:09:31,710 stories that keep us going that keep us 245 00:09:37,430 --> 00:09:34,140 getting up in the morning and he keep us 246 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:37,440 from staying up all night so you have to 247 00:09:42,650 --> 00:09:40,370 respect that but at the same time I also 248 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:42,660 appreciate and relate to your 249 00:09:48,770 --> 00:09:45,570 sensibility of we do have to try and get 250 00:09:51,140 --> 00:09:48,780 to something close to the truth I mean 251 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:51,150 we do have to kind of sort this out in a 252 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:53,850 way absolutely yeah I'm not saying that 253 00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:56,370 um yeah I mean I'm simply saying that 254 00:09:59,540 --> 00:09:58,170 you know people believe what they 255 00:10:01,280 --> 00:09:59,550 believe not because they're stupid but 256 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:01,290 because that's that you know because the 257 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:02,730 human brain is that kind of fallible an 258 00:10:06,170 --> 00:10:04,170 irrational thing that kind of operates 259 00:10:08,150 --> 00:10:06,180 in this kind of story modes you know we 260 00:10:10,010 --> 00:10:08,160 live our lives as if with a hero in that 261 00:10:12,050 --> 00:10:10,020 kind of David and Goliath got a 262 00:10:13,670 --> 00:10:12,060 narrative generally speaking and you 263 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:13,680 know I think that that you know that 264 00:10:16,790 --> 00:10:15,510 that's the kind of the theme of that 265 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:16,800 book and you know and absolutely we have 266 00:10:19,550 --> 00:10:18,210 the scientific method we know we have 267 00:10:22,010 --> 00:10:19,560 the scientific method which breaks down 268 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:22,020 all those prejudices and all those 269 00:10:26,750 --> 00:10:25,110 biases which kind of lead everybody no 270 00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:26,760 matter who they are me and you included 271 00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:29,190 sometimes down wrong Alice and wrong 272 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:31,620 Alice that can seem absolutely real it 273 00:10:35,050 --> 00:10:32,570 can seem we are come 274 00:10:37,210 --> 00:10:35,060 vinced we are right we are convinced the 275 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:37,220 other person is lying or biased or 276 00:10:40,930 --> 00:10:39,290 whatever and you know we're wrong and 277 00:10:43,150 --> 00:10:40,940 that and we're all guilty that at some 278 00:10:44,740 --> 00:10:43,160 point in our lives so how do we sort it 279 00:10:46,770 --> 00:10:44,750 out I mean what did you come away with 280 00:10:50,980 --> 00:10:46,780 at the end of the day as some of the big 281 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:50,990 takeaways in terms of how we get at the 282 00:10:56,380 --> 00:10:55,250 truth well I mean boring is it sex you 283 00:10:59,140 --> 00:10:56,390 know this i mean the scientific method 284 00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:59,150 is that is that thing that the kind of 285 00:11:02,890 --> 00:11:00,800 humanity has come across is that method 286 00:11:05,140 --> 00:11:02,900 that humanity has come across too and 287 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:05,150 you know it's not a clean perfect engine 288 00:11:10,270 --> 00:11:07,850 it moves forward in this kind of bad 289 00:11:11,950 --> 00:11:10,280 tempered mode of crotchety consensus and 290 00:11:13,510 --> 00:11:11,960 sometimes it has to have reversals and 291 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:13,520 you know it's not it's a it's a 292 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:15,770 difficult thing but it works you know on 293 00:11:21,070 --> 00:11:18,410 in that great macro view it works it 294 00:11:22,570 --> 00:11:21,080 works in terms of breaking that you know 295 00:11:23,980 --> 00:11:22,580 in breaking down those prejudice 296 00:11:25,570 --> 00:11:23,990 breaking down as bass he's breaking down 297 00:11:27,340 --> 00:11:25,580 those people have those wrong alleys I 298 00:11:30,010 --> 00:11:27,350 mean it's the scientific method was the 299 00:11:31,780 --> 00:11:30,020 other thing that i retook away is much 300 00:11:34,410 --> 00:11:31,790 sort of simple to understand is that you 301 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:34,420 know I've become extraordinarily 302 00:11:39,970 --> 00:11:37,370 concerned about people who become overly 303 00:11:41,950 --> 00:11:39,980 emotional about subjects and one of the 304 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:41,960 kind of interviews I did for the book 305 00:11:45,970 --> 00:11:44,390 which really affected me and and kind of 306 00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:45,980 changed the way I saw this was this guy 307 00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:47,600 called Professor Jonathan height who I 308 00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:48,800 don't know if he's been on your show or 309 00:11:54,610 --> 00:11:53,480 not no he's a psychologist and he has 310 00:11:56,170 --> 00:11:54,620 written a couple of books happiness 311 00:11:58,270 --> 00:11:56,180 hypothesis in the righteous mind and 312 00:11:59,860 --> 00:11:58,280 he's he's interested in in people's 313 00:12:01,870 --> 00:11:59,870 moral views is interested in how we come 314 00:12:03,730 --> 00:12:01,880 wellness more views he's interested in 315 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:03,740 political views how it become left wing 316 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:05,570 or right wing and he said to me you know 317 00:12:09,790 --> 00:12:07,570 if you want to find the irrationality 318 00:12:12,070 --> 00:12:09,800 find things that people would have made 319 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:12,080 sacred and the examples that he used 320 00:12:17,410 --> 00:12:14,450 were so on the left he said he not he 321 00:12:18,970 --> 00:12:17,420 said I'm a scientist I believe in 322 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:18,980 man-made climate change I believe what 323 00:12:21,970 --> 00:12:20,630 you know you know that it's a real thing 324 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:21,980 and all that stuff so get that out the 325 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:25,490 way but I do not trust the left to tell 326 00:12:28,450 --> 00:12:26,450 me the truth about climate change 327 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:28,460 because they've made it sacred and on 328 00:12:31,090 --> 00:12:30,110 the right you know the same with the 329 00:12:33,250 --> 00:12:31,100 right wing and the power of the free 330 00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:33,260 marking of people on the right they you 331 00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:34,430 know they profit eyes the free market 332 00:12:38,830 --> 00:12:36,230 the invisible hand that can only do good 333 00:12:40,090 --> 00:12:38,840 things you know he doesn't trust the 334 00:12:41,740 --> 00:12:40,100 right to turn the truth about the free 335 00:12:43,420 --> 00:12:41,750 market because they've made it sacred 336 00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:43,430 and we know and when you make something 337 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:45,760 sacred you get really emotional about it 338 00:12:49,950 --> 00:12:47,290 so that's that's kind of a red flag to 339 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:49,960 me and again you see that a lot you know 340 00:12:53,370 --> 00:12:52,330 I think yeah you know Richard Dawkins 341 00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:53,380 always comes up in these conversations 342 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:55,120 and I think he's really interesting 343 00:12:58,740 --> 00:12:56,770 because you know he's he's I think he's 344 00:13:00,360 --> 00:12:58,750 right about most of what he says it's 345 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:00,370 very hard to poke holes in his arguments 346 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:02,170 in terms of the science but I think what 347 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:05,110 people have is an instinctive distrust 348 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:07,290 of people like dawkins and sam Harris 349 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:10,420 because they're so emotional it's so 350 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:13,690 angry and they will brook no criticism 351 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:15,970 of their arguments whatsoever and I mean 352 00:13:19,950 --> 00:13:17,710 and that's you know that's instinctive 353 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:19,960 in people but that's very wise I think 354 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:21,850 it's very true that you know no matter 355 00:13:25,710 --> 00:13:24,550 who you are if you're overly emotional 356 00:13:27,270 --> 00:13:25,720 about the thing that you're thinking 357 00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:27,280 about that's the point where 358 00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:29,440 unfortunately I believe you cannot trust 359 00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:31,500 yourself to think about it clearly the 360 00:13:35,910 --> 00:13:33,460 conclusions and the opinions that your 361 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:35,920 brain is throwing up for you are suspect 362 00:13:41,370 --> 00:13:37,450 and you should be kind of on high alert 363 00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:41,380 for you know your own rationality if you 364 00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:42,430 find yourself you know with your 365 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:43,750 heartbeat racing in your adrenaline 366 00:13:47,010 --> 00:13:45,610 pumping and everything becomes really 367 00:13:49,590 --> 00:13:47,020 personal that's when you're in that kind 368 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:49,600 of danger zone mmm I really like that 369 00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:53,170 quote that you give about when we make 370 00:13:58,110 --> 00:13:55,120 something sacred that's kind of the red 371 00:14:00,060 --> 00:13:58,120 flag that we've met me cross the line of 372 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:00,070 rationality but I did have to wonder you 373 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:03,010 know in your books which both those two 374 00:14:07,260 --> 00:14:05,250 are the ones that I delved into both the 375 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:07,270 unpersuaded Buhl's that's what it's 376 00:14:11,490 --> 00:14:08,890 called here in the United States in the 377 00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:11,500 UK it's the title as the heretics and 378 00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:14,020 this older one that I found really some 379 00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:15,040 great stories and they're very 380 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:16,720 entertaining books do I mean the real 381 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:19,090 page turners and have a great style but 382 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:21,370 the other one was will store versus the 383 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:24,580 supernatural but both the books I felt 384 00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:28,810 came tantalizingly close to kind of 385 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:31,420 saying something or really uncovering 386 00:14:35,850 --> 00:14:33,490 something big and then they kind of 387 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:35,860 backed off and just kind of loud left it 388 00:14:40,170 --> 00:14:37,810 in that zone of kind of figured out for 389 00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:40,180 yourself which on one hand is ok but on 390 00:14:43,650 --> 00:14:41,440 the other hand you know you just touch 391 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:43,660 on some great topics that I'd love to 392 00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:46,300 delve into you know science you say 393 00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:47,920 ultimately it's about the scientific 394 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:49,750 method I think the scientific method is 395 00:14:53,820 --> 00:14:51,610 awesome I think the same way that you do 396 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:53,830 as a way of pulling back from the biases 397 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:55,570 and prejudices we all have and getting 398 00:14:59,840 --> 00:14:58,050 beyond that fantastic but 399 00:15:02,740 --> 00:14:59,850 you know the story that you just told 400 00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:02,750 will you go and encounter this 401 00:15:09,710 --> 00:15:06,000 demonologist and at the very least come 402 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:09,720 away with an unexplainable experience 403 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:13,529 well where's the man on the moon effort 404 00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:16,050 by science to follow up on your 405 00:15:22,130 --> 00:15:18,480 experience or we could even start out 406 00:15:24,079 --> 00:15:22,140 with how why were you conditioned to 407 00:15:27,259 --> 00:15:24,089 believe that this was going to be 408 00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:27,269 totally a farce when you know some of 409 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:29,790 the best science a hundred years ago all 410 00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:32,730 the best scientists had studied this 411 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:35,160 extensively in the UK that's where they 412 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:36,690 really started and they came to the 413 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:38,010 conclusion that there's something here 414 00:15:41,060 --> 00:15:39,240 we don't know what it is but there's 415 00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:41,070 something there and you experience the 416 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:43,350 same thing but there's no like I said 417 00:15:47,630 --> 00:15:44,970 there's no man on the moon effort to say 418 00:15:49,730 --> 00:15:47,640 okay well this totally contradicts our 419 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:49,740 paradigm has the potential to totally 420 00:15:54,530 --> 00:15:51,570 change our world view let's investigate 421 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:54,540 it uh yeah I mean I mean you know I I 422 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:56,250 viously I can't ask that question I'm 423 00:15:59,569 --> 00:15:57,570 not a scientist than I you know I don't 424 00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:59,579 need any respect kind of speak for their 425 00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:01,440 scientific community do you know every 426 00:16:04,670 --> 00:16:02,870 night you know I know I'm preaching to 427 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:04,680 somebody who knows far more about these 428 00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:06,420 subjects than I do you know we live in a 429 00:16:10,910 --> 00:16:08,760 materialistic kind of world and we live 430 00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:10,920 in a world in which the vast majority of 431 00:16:15,079 --> 00:16:12,660 the scientific community you know you 432 00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:15,089 know he's thinking from that paradigm 433 00:16:18,139 --> 00:16:16,920 and I mean you know as well as I do when 434 00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:18,149 it comes to things like scientific I 435 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:19,800 mean there is there is our ideology in 436 00:16:24,199 --> 00:16:21,810 science absolutely there's ideology in 437 00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:24,209 science that you know that people I mean 438 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:25,500 one of the things that people do get 439 00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:26,760 really emotional about is this 440 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:29,430 materialistic mindset and you know I'd 441 00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:32,010 in the UM persuader wars I spend some 442 00:16:35,449 --> 00:16:34,560 time talking about Rupert Sheldrake be 443 00:16:37,150 --> 00:16:35,459 sure I mean I think he's been in your 444 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:37,160 show a couple of times I Reba Sheldrake 445 00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:41,910 and he in the experiences he's had and 446 00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:43,350 quite apart from who's right and who's 447 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:45,000 wrong on the science behind that you've 448 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:46,560 only got to look at the way he's been 449 00:16:52,819 --> 00:16:49,050 treated and the things that he's 450 00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:52,829 experienced to see that the people who 451 00:16:56,829 --> 00:16:55,110 rubbish him and and the people who seek 452 00:16:59,540 --> 00:16:56,839 to kind of house he have his voice 453 00:17:02,090 --> 00:16:59,550 silenced and they that's no exaggeration 454 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:02,100 you know people are you know if he's as 455 00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:03,690 you know he you know when he when he's 456 00:17:09,770 --> 00:17:06,510 booked to appear at live events there 457 00:17:11,449 --> 00:17:09,780 you know people agitate and protest 458 00:17:13,159 --> 00:17:11,459 until he's taken off the bill I mean 459 00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:13,169 I mean it's quite extraordinary he's 460 00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,049 just a man with some ideas no they've 461 00:17:19,850 --> 00:17:18,000 made it sacred they've made materials 462 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:19,860 and sacred and that's why I you know I 463 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:21,510 don't trust them to tell me the truth 464 00:17:25,130 --> 00:17:23,250 about materialism but you know it's 465 00:17:28,039 --> 00:17:25,140 science is also about funding so you 466 00:17:29,690 --> 00:17:28,049 know scientists need service oh there's 467 00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:29,700 that that there's that that you know if 468 00:17:36,340 --> 00:17:31,830 you if you do if you do find scientists 469 00:17:39,049 --> 00:17:36,350 who are sympathetic to these ideas then 470 00:17:41,149 --> 00:17:39,059 you know that there's a chance there 471 00:17:42,860 --> 00:17:41,159 look there they're unlikely to want to 472 00:17:44,180 --> 00:17:42,870 study this stuff because they're afraid 473 00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:44,190 of being ridiculed their friend of their 474 00:17:48,590 --> 00:17:47,340 their reputations being destroyed then 475 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:48,600 there's also in funding who it mean it 476 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:52,710 mean you know people prioritize and I 477 00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:54,690 completely agree you know these major 478 00:17:58,880 --> 00:17:57,120 questions about reality you know and I 479 00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:58,890 think a lot of those are being looked at 480 00:18:01,039 --> 00:17:59,760 but they're being looked at by 481 00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:01,049 cosmologists rather than 482 00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:02,760 parapsychologists I mean these are the 483 00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:06,390 people who really are being money and 484 00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:08,580 who are celebrated for answering asking 485 00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:10,110 these big questions and coming up with 486 00:18:13,779 --> 00:18:11,880 some very weird ideas like the 487 00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:13,789 multiverse and things like this so 488 00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:17,039 that's that works being done but you 489 00:18:23,779 --> 00:18:20,640 know that I think when people are 490 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:23,789 looking to fund well yet you know here 491 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:25,890 let me redirect it a little bit will be 492 00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:28,770 yes you know it take your book the 493 00:18:32,450 --> 00:18:31,110 heretics and yet one of the stories in 494 00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:32,460 there you talk to this really 495 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:33,840 interesting guy is not that interesting 496 00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:36,210 but the story is interesting is it new 497 00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:37,679 earth creationist you know and you 498 00:18:42,260 --> 00:18:40,320 really it you really try and connect 499 00:18:44,090 --> 00:18:42,270 with this guy I mean that's one of the 500 00:18:47,810 --> 00:18:44,100 great things about your story with them 501 00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:47,820 is you're not quick to to ridicule and 502 00:18:51,919 --> 00:18:49,740 judge him you're kind of like come on 503 00:18:55,549 --> 00:18:51,929 man you know you don't really believe 504 00:18:57,529 --> 00:18:55,559 this stuff do you and we all come away 505 00:19:00,440 --> 00:18:57,539 from that story reading it going wow you 506 00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:00,450 know this guy is locked into this just 507 00:19:06,260 --> 00:19:04,529 absurd kind of worldview but when I step 508 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:06,270 back and like I tell you this I relate 509 00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:07,890 the story of the demonologist I say 510 00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:11,840 aren't we all in these kind of bracketed 511 00:19:17,299 --> 00:19:14,580 absurdities that we kind of live in and 512 00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:17,309 we feel comfortable in and that's what I 513 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:19,620 guess I was kind of relating to your 514 00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:22,049 story with the demonologist I mean yeah 515 00:19:25,820 --> 00:19:24,240 you mentioned you mentioned dockings 516 00:19:27,889 --> 00:19:25,830 yeah you know I 517 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:27,899 think that's that's a great example I 518 00:19:32,659 --> 00:19:30,330 mean let's go back to him the favorite 519 00:19:35,509 --> 00:19:32,669 guy for everyone to either a lot or pick 520 00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:35,519 on depending on who you what side you're 521 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:38,700 on here's a guy who's told us that we 522 00:19:43,610 --> 00:19:41,250 are biological robots living in a 523 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:43,620 meaningless universe this is an 524 00:19:50,029 --> 00:19:47,010 absurdity to you it's an absurdity to me 525 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:50,039 its absurdity to everyone it's a no one 526 00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:51,330 lives their life like that no one really 527 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:53,700 believes it but because it comes from 528 00:20:00,169 --> 00:19:57,330 this kind of sanctioned position we kind 529 00:20:01,610 --> 00:20:00,179 of go well you know let them go don't 530 00:20:03,049 --> 00:20:01,620 make too big of deal about it you're 531 00:20:04,940 --> 00:20:03,059 just like when we pass the catholic 532 00:20:06,409 --> 00:20:04,950 church with allow you know hey you know 533 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:06,419 some people believe some people don't 534 00:20:10,460 --> 00:20:08,970 it's this bracketed bit of absurdity so 535 00:20:13,759 --> 00:20:10,470 i think when we draw out somebody who's 536 00:20:16,009 --> 00:20:13,769 really over the edge this new earth 537 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:16,019 creationist we come now that's absurd 538 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:18,450 but all these other absurdities like 539 00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:21,210 it's gonna live with but i mean i'd be 540 00:20:25,879 --> 00:20:23,190 for me my purse diffuse i'm not sure 541 00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:25,889 that dawkins is being nat up sir but 542 00:20:29,419 --> 00:20:27,750 when he says that i mean III don't know 543 00:20:30,610 --> 00:20:29,429 the secrets of reality and the meaning 544 00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:30,620 of life in the secret to the universe 545 00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:33,360 richard dawkins says he does i mean he 546 00:20:36,379 --> 00:20:34,769 may well be right i mean you know that 547 00:20:38,570 --> 00:20:36,389 mean that there's lots of evidence to 548 00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:38,580 show that you know that points to this 549 00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:41,760 idea that life may well be completely 550 00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:43,260 meaningless I mean you know you know 551 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:46,350 meaning is you know in lots of ways is 552 00:20:49,779 --> 00:20:48,450 an illusion and that's part of where we 553 00:20:52,519 --> 00:20:49,789 go wrong I mean going back to the 554 00:20:54,769 --> 00:20:52,529 creationist I mean but but we'll let me 555 00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:54,779 just start I won't go into you know I I 556 00:21:00,139 --> 00:20:56,429 just wrote a book why science is wrong 557 00:21:01,789 --> 00:21:00,149 about almost okay okay so right but the 558 00:21:04,370 --> 00:21:01,799 point one of the points of that book is 559 00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,380 that there's tons of evidence that we 560 00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:06,240 live with every day including the 561 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:08,940 placebo effect in hypnosis and you know 562 00:21:11,389 --> 00:21:10,110 death experience and all these other 563 00:21:14,139 --> 00:21:11,399 things that tell us that that 564 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:14,149 experimentally the evidence is in 565 00:21:18,889 --> 00:21:17,130 overwhelmingly that's just doesn't hold 566 00:21:20,750 --> 00:21:18,899 up I mean whether you have a strong 567 00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:20,760 position about it whether you're you 568 00:21:24,110 --> 00:21:22,710 make it sacred or not the evidence just 569 00:21:26,419 --> 00:21:24,120 doesn't point that direction but 570 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:26,429 moreover we don't live our lives like 571 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:29,250 that no one believes there a biological 572 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:31,049 robot living in a meaningless well no 573 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:35,090 one if I find everybody leave that no 574 00:21:39,610 --> 00:21:37,730 I'm granted it's a bracketed absurdity 575 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:39,620 right so we don't really touch it we 576 00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:41,690 don't really go there your experience I 577 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:43,670 mean the experience you had with some 578 00:21:48,070 --> 00:21:46,310 kind of anomalous communication some 579 00:21:50,860 --> 00:21:48,080 kind of afterlife communication again 580 00:21:53,170 --> 00:21:50,870 the amount of experience across culture 581 00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:53,180 across time in the reality at phenomena 582 00:21:57,790 --> 00:21:55,910 this is overwhelming most people accept 583 00:21:58,900 --> 00:21:57,800 that that there's somehow you know in 584 00:22:00,730 --> 00:21:58,910 the back of their mind they think well 585 00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:00,740 there's probably something to that I've 586 00:22:05,230 --> 00:22:03,110 heard that too much but yet we kind of 587 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:05,240 we kind of bracket it either one way or 588 00:22:09,370 --> 00:22:07,130 another in and that's how we navigate so 589 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:09,380 back to your back to your excellent 590 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:12,290 books I mean how do we sort through our 591 00:22:20,110 --> 00:22:16,610 own stuff our own assumed absurdities 592 00:22:21,910 --> 00:22:20,120 that that then make us look out at the 593 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:21,920 world and say wow you know that's really 594 00:22:27,010 --> 00:22:24,170 how how can they believe that whatever 595 00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:27,020 they but I think I think the answer is 596 00:22:31,780 --> 00:22:29,900 in humility I think you know yeah it is 597 00:22:35,110 --> 00:22:31,790 as much as you you know believe 598 00:22:36,580 --> 00:22:35,120 everything that you believe is true is 599 00:22:39,010 --> 00:22:36,590 this is just to have that basic 600 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:39,020 fundamental understanding that everybody 601 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:41,210 else believes what they believe just as 602 00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:42,410 much as you and they believe the 603 00:22:46,450 --> 00:22:43,910 evidence is in just as much as you and 604 00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:46,460 they see their reality just as clearly 605 00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:49,190 and as truly as you see your so to have 606 00:22:55,420 --> 00:22:52,880 that humility to go okay so he know so 607 00:22:56,860 --> 00:22:55,430 here's me sincerely believing all this 608 00:22:59,320 --> 00:22:56,870 stuff and here's that person over there 609 00:23:01,690 --> 00:22:59,330 equally sincerely believing all their 610 00:23:02,890 --> 00:23:01,700 stuff and I don't know I think when 611 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:02,900 you're at that point of kind of 612 00:23:07,090 --> 00:23:04,610 proselytize ined you know being 613 00:23:09,610 --> 00:23:07,100 evangelical about your your beliefs I 614 00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:09,620 mean for me that's the point where I you 615 00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:11,000 know you just need to have a bit of 616 00:23:15,220 --> 00:23:12,500 humility and to understand that the 617 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:15,230 brain is an organ of delusion you know 618 00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:16,970 it is going to tell you all right you 619 00:23:21,130 --> 00:23:18,680 know everybody suffer some confirmation 620 00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:21,140 bias everybody's going to look at good 621 00:23:26,860 --> 00:23:23,630 evidence that contradicts their beliefs 622 00:23:28,570 --> 00:23:26,870 and find some way some wiggle room which 623 00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:28,580 enables them to dismiss it and that 624 00:23:33,610 --> 00:23:31,640 isn't a sign of not being intelligent 625 00:23:35,050 --> 00:23:33,620 you know I think they've been that I 626 00:23:36,190 --> 00:23:35,060 think there was a study I read about I 627 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:36,200 didn't put it in the book but it was a 628 00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:38,210 study right about that showed that for 629 00:23:44,170 --> 00:23:41,120 more intelligent you are the harder it 630 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:44,180 is to to challenge your own beliefs 631 00:23:48,350 --> 00:23:46,610 because the better you are at finding 632 00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:48,360 reasons to dismiss 633 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:50,160 arguments of your opponents so 634 00:23:54,140 --> 00:23:52,290 intelligence becomes a kind of trap you 635 00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:54,150 know it leaves you can actually lead you 636 00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:56,400 further into the sea rationality so it's 637 00:24:00,799 --> 00:23:58,080 just it's just I supposed to be the 638 00:24:02,690 --> 00:24:00,809 starting point now is the basic 639 00:24:05,930 --> 00:24:02,700 fundamental humility I mean you know 640 00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:05,940 even in my writing now I it is terrible 641 00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:07,260 for my career because the writers who 642 00:24:11,539 --> 00:24:09,420 are famous are the ones who were wrongly 643 00:24:13,789 --> 00:24:11,549 you know who are standing up there we're 644 00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:13,799 circling their tubs shouting shouting 645 00:24:17,930 --> 00:24:16,260 you know insulting people causing a lot 646 00:24:21,710 --> 00:24:17,940 of fuss and I just can't do that because 647 00:24:23,210 --> 00:24:21,720 what if I'm wrong you know but i have to 648 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:23,220 give both sides effect could I wait 649 00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:25,140 because what if I'm wrong and I think 650 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:27,120 you know and I think doesn't monitor my 651 00:24:31,789 --> 00:24:29,370 book sales any good but I think I think 652 00:24:32,930 --> 00:24:31,799 I think that's the correct you know when 653 00:24:34,430 --> 00:24:32,940 she wants you to know all this stuff 654 00:24:35,810 --> 00:24:34,440 about how the brain works when she know 655 00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:35,820 all this stuff about how possible it is 656 00:24:38,690 --> 00:24:37,230 to be completely wrong and it can 657 00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:38,700 utterly convinced you're right with all 658 00:24:43,370 --> 00:24:40,950 the best evidence on your side you can't 659 00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:43,380 ever go back to that place of thinking 660 00:24:47,810 --> 00:24:45,660 you know that kind of goody baddy 661 00:24:49,580 --> 00:24:47,820 paradigm that so many people in you know 662 00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,590 including a lot of the atheists skeptics 663 00:24:53,299 --> 00:24:51,840 kind of existing you know we've not 664 00:24:56,030 --> 00:24:53,309 mentioned um James Randi yet I mean 665 00:24:57,500 --> 00:24:56,040 James Randi is you know the original 666 00:24:58,520 --> 00:24:57,510 Richard Dawkins in a way I mean 667 00:25:00,860 --> 00:24:58,530 obviously without the academic 668 00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:00,870 background but you know the original mr. 669 00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:03,720 angry and you know look at me you know i 670 00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:05,220 mean you know when you when you poke 671 00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:07,860 click on a james randi cult it all falls 672 00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:10,080 to be it's fairly quickly well you know 673 00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:12,750 you touched on something in your book 674 00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,400 and in interviews I've seen with you 675 00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:16,320 that I think is really a deep insight 676 00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:19,260 and you encapsulated in this quote what 677 00:25:25,340 --> 00:25:21,870 if the truth alters me fractures 678 00:25:26,780 --> 00:25:25,350 something essential in me and do you 679 00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:26,790 want to speak to that because I think 680 00:25:33,169 --> 00:25:29,910 that's the underlying fear here you know 681 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:33,179 that I have things kind of under control 682 00:25:39,140 --> 00:25:36,450 in a crazy insane world I have things 683 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:39,150 kind of under control do I really want 684 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:41,690 to explore truth what if that truth 685 00:25:49,460 --> 00:25:45,410 somehow really fractures me in some way 686 00:25:51,890 --> 00:25:49,470 yeah yeah yeah I mean as you said it 687 00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:51,900 kind of goes to the heart of what I kind 688 00:25:54,919 --> 00:25:53,820 of found when I was working on their own 689 00:25:56,090 --> 00:25:54,929 persuade Awards I mean you can start at 690 00:25:58,010 --> 00:25:56,100 the very beginning with that with that 691 00:25:59,419 --> 00:25:58,020 creationist you know one of the one of 692 00:26:01,070 --> 00:25:59,429 the one of the most notable things about 693 00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:01,080 the questions was he was just a massive 694 00:26:04,670 --> 00:26:03,240 the folk you know he really did not like 695 00:26:06,170 --> 00:26:04,680 gay people i mean you know they were 696 00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:06,180 going to hell they were living into the 697 00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:07,620 billions to god they should you know 698 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:10,440 they were like really you know very 699 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:13,050 aggressive homophobia and you know what 700 00:26:16,730 --> 00:26:14,730 i found doing the book is that in you 701 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:16,740 know what happens is that we start with 702 00:26:19,820 --> 00:26:18,330 the belief we start with what we believe 703 00:26:21,530 --> 00:26:19,830 and then we go out into the world 704 00:26:22,790 --> 00:26:21,540 looking for reasons to justify that 705 00:26:26,420 --> 00:26:22,800 belief you know they call it that make 706 00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:26,430 sense stopping rule so it somebody like 707 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:29,910 John Mark I a creationist who who has 708 00:26:34,910 --> 00:26:32,970 that kind of brain will look at gay 709 00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:34,920 people will look at will think about two 710 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:37,380 men kissing or whatever and they may 711 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:39,930 feel something like discussed and you 712 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:41,250 know I call it in the book you know the 713 00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:42,810 hero maker the brain being the hero make 714 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:45,270 it makes us the hero of our stories so 715 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:47,130 what does some people say about people 716 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:50,010 who sit hoo hoo look at homosexuality 717 00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:51,090 and think about how much section and 718 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:52,110 people discuss well they say they're 719 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:54,330 horrible they're bit I guess they're 720 00:26:59,210 --> 00:26:56,250 homophobes they're nasty people there in 721 00:27:00,800 --> 00:26:59,220 on the same page as racists but don't 722 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:00,810 like John Mark I can't believe that 723 00:27:05,150 --> 00:27:02,910 because it would fracture his psyche it 724 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:05,160 would destroy him to believe that was he 725 00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:06,810 he would become the bad guy he'd become 726 00:27:10,130 --> 00:27:08,640 the villain in his own brain so he goes 727 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:10,140 out into the world he looks for a set of 728 00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:12,570 beliefs that justify those emotional 729 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:15,600 instinctive instant experiences he has 730 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:17,850 and he finds that in Old Testament 731 00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:20,490 Christianity he finds that so when he 732 00:27:24,140 --> 00:27:22,110 reads passages in the Bible in the Old 733 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:24,150 Testament which says you know whatever 734 00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:25,560 is to do with her man lies with the man 735 00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:27,660 punishment is death whatever it says he 736 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:30,480 goes this is true he feels is DV this is 737 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:32,730 the truth I have found the truth and we 738 00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:35,010 all do that you know we all start off 739 00:27:38,270 --> 00:27:36,240 with the instinctive beliefs our 740 00:27:41,060 --> 00:27:38,280 unconscious does the work for us you 741 00:27:42,860 --> 00:27:41,070 know if I you know if somebody gives us 742 00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:42,870 an opinion or a viewpoint we have an 743 00:27:46,850 --> 00:27:45,240 instant emotional response to that to 744 00:27:49,340 --> 00:27:46,860 that viewpoint all emotions pour down to 745 00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:49,350 to approach or withdraw all emotions are 746 00:27:54,860 --> 00:27:51,600 variants one approach or withdrawal and 747 00:27:56,210 --> 00:27:54,870 if we feel approach to that opinion we 748 00:27:57,620 --> 00:27:56,220 will like that person it will think this 749 00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:57,630 person is not biased they're not 750 00:28:00,860 --> 00:27:58,890 prejudiced they're intelligent wise 751 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:00,870 people and if it's so withdraw emotion 752 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:02,250 we're going to elliott's their bias 753 00:28:07,460 --> 00:28:04,650 their prejudice there or racist or 754 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:07,470 homophobic we were all stuck in this 755 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:09,450 kind of paradigm and you know all of us 756 00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:12,810 and it's for somebody like Richard 757 00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:14,820 Dawkins to even consider I'm 758 00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:16,529 non materialist view point to even 759 00:28:21,919 --> 00:28:19,110 consider an idea that in a non-local 760 00:28:23,299 --> 00:28:21,929 theory of consciousness I mean you know 761 00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:23,309 I can't get inside his head but I 762 00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:25,500 imagined the very idea would kind of 763 00:28:29,299 --> 00:28:27,870 make his get his adrenaline rising and 764 00:28:31,129 --> 00:28:29,309 his blood pumping in the veins in his 765 00:28:32,899 --> 00:28:31,139 head throbbing it's that instinctive 766 00:28:34,730 --> 00:28:32,909 again it goes back to the emotion it's a 767 00:28:37,129 --> 00:28:34,740 instinctive emotional response and when 768 00:28:38,629 --> 00:28:37,139 the emotional response is strong you 769 00:28:40,279 --> 00:28:38,639 know something's going wrong with the 770 00:28:43,639 --> 00:28:40,289 way we're thinking but then what what 771 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:43,649 hope is there that is you really take 772 00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,870 the logical extension of that I mean it 773 00:28:50,269 --> 00:28:48,000 it's pretty grim I mean because you take 774 00:28:51,740 --> 00:28:50,279 the science or the best knowledge that 775 00:28:53,629 --> 00:28:51,750 we have according to the scientific 776 00:28:55,399 --> 00:28:53,639 method and then we move it into the 777 00:28:58,100 --> 00:28:55,409 public arena into the decisions that 778 00:29:01,360 --> 00:28:58,110 really make and affect our lives and if 779 00:29:04,990 --> 00:29:01,370 it's all filtered and completely 780 00:29:07,460 --> 00:29:05,000 overwhelmed by these irrational 781 00:29:10,460 --> 00:29:07,470 prejudices what what hope is there 782 00:29:12,619 --> 00:29:10,470 really to come through this well I and 783 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:12,629 one of the might of the chapters that I 784 00:29:16,820 --> 00:29:15,450 kind of like in the most neo spider 785 00:29:18,860 --> 00:29:16,830 balls is that is the one that talks 786 00:29:21,730 --> 00:29:18,870 about schizophrenia and I like this one 787 00:29:23,629 --> 00:29:21,740 because it wasn't scientists versus 788 00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:23,639 non-scientist it was scientist versus 789 00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:25,710 scientist so you know we had week there 790 00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:27,809 were two guys one was written some 791 00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,340 brilliant books on mental illness he's a 792 00:29:33,499 --> 00:29:31,440 professor / another one a doctor a 793 00:29:34,940 --> 00:29:33,509 former vice president of the Royal 794 00:29:36,490 --> 00:29:34,950 Institute of Psychiatry you know both 795 00:29:39,409 --> 00:29:36,500 people immersed in the literature 796 00:29:41,299 --> 00:29:39,419 immersed in the journals you know you 797 00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:41,309 can't tell them anything about their 798 00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:43,830 subject area and yet complete opposites 799 00:29:47,690 --> 00:29:45,960 of the scale one set I get mini do 800 00:29:49,490 --> 00:29:47,700 justice briefly what one person says 801 00:29:51,860 --> 00:29:49,500 that schizophrenia is a real biological 802 00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:51,870 disease and you can tell it's a real 803 00:29:55,610 --> 00:29:53,129 disease because you look in the brain 804 00:29:56,990 --> 00:29:55,620 and schizophrenics and you can see the 805 00:29:58,850 --> 00:29:57,000 damage that gets the free nervous of 806 00:30:00,350 --> 00:29:58,860 course their brain say their brains have 807 00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:00,360 shrunk in size and there are certain 808 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:03,750 ventricles that have the show damage now 809 00:30:07,999 --> 00:30:05,570 what the other scientist says is that 810 00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:08,009 voice hearing schizophr in doesn't exist 811 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:09,809 but people who hear voices it's because 812 00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:11,730 of some sort of trauma like sexual abuse 813 00:30:15,409 --> 00:30:13,320 and the reason you can see in the brain 814 00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:15,419 these changes it because they have to 815 00:30:18,619 --> 00:30:16,860 take these awful antipsychotic 816 00:30:21,649 --> 00:30:18,629 medication which you know mux your brain 817 00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:21,659 have what I liked about that chapter was 818 00:30:25,220 --> 00:30:23,279 I went back and forth between them a few 819 00:30:26,690 --> 00:30:25,230 times and they ended up just it was like 820 00:30:28,380 --> 00:30:26,700 playground insults calling each other 821 00:30:30,690 --> 00:30:28,390 stupid he's an idiot Oh 822 00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:30,700 despair and all this stuff they ended up 823 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:32,800 behaving just like just like you and me 824 00:30:37,380 --> 00:30:35,650 were down the pub having a no hey dis 825 00:30:39,150 --> 00:30:37,390 disagreeing about about something that 826 00:30:40,590 --> 00:30:39,160 we care passionately about so there you 827 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:40,600 have you know if you if you drill down 828 00:30:44,730 --> 00:30:42,850 into the scientific methods this kind of 829 00:30:46,110 --> 00:30:44,740 rarefied world of science down to the 830 00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:46,120 level of the individual scientists 831 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:48,040 they're just like you or me there just 832 00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:50,350 as prejudice just as biased just as in 833 00:30:54,540 --> 00:30:52,030 unable to see the arguments of the other 834 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:54,550 person but was but but the science does 835 00:30:58,980 --> 00:30:56,530 work on the macro view like at some 836 00:31:01,980 --> 00:30:58,990 point this rare will be settled I mean 837 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:01,990 even I mean that the side that says that 838 00:31:06,660 --> 00:31:03,250 schizophrenia isn't real they were 839 00:31:07,770 --> 00:31:06,670 called it all started in Europe and 840 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:07,780 there was a movement called the hearing 841 00:31:12,330 --> 00:31:09,910 voices network which was there was some 842 00:31:13,140 --> 00:31:12,340 quote from the from the year 2000 saying 843 00:31:15,330 --> 00:31:13,150 there were the most one of the most 844 00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:15,340 dangerous movements in psychiatry 845 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:16,900 because they're encouraging people 846 00:31:19,170 --> 00:31:18,010 schizophrenia to come off their 847 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:19,180 medications let me know that we're a 848 00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:21,810 feared organization and ten years later 849 00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:25,000 some of the things some of the practices 850 00:31:28,290 --> 00:31:26,080 some of the some of the methods they 851 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:28,300 found to help people who hear voices 852 00:31:32,610 --> 00:31:30,310 I've been absorbed into the mainstream 853 00:31:34,290 --> 00:31:32,620 and standard practice now before used to 854 00:31:36,450 --> 00:31:34,300 be told to ignore your voice if you 855 00:31:37,650 --> 00:31:36,460 heard voices ignore that Miss like you 856 00:31:39,390 --> 00:31:37,660 know if you engage with them or just 857 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:39,400 make it worse what the hearing voices 858 00:31:42,420 --> 00:31:40,810 network people started experimenting 859 00:31:45,540 --> 00:31:42,430 with was actually talking to your voice 860 00:31:49,170 --> 00:31:45,550 is a negotiating with them if they're if 861 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:49,180 you're out on the street and you feel 862 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:50,530 like you can't ignore them pull out your 863 00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:51,970 cell phone pretend you're having a 864 00:31:56,970 --> 00:31:55,600 conversation if you're having a chat on 865 00:31:58,170 --> 00:31:56,980 the phone with somebody and the voices 866 00:31:59,850 --> 00:31:58,180 are intrusive to say to your voice 867 00:32:01,380 --> 00:31:59,860 listen I can't talk to you now but I 868 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:01,390 speak to you later on these are 869 00:32:06,060 --> 00:32:03,610 dangerous ideas or they were 14 years 870 00:32:09,030 --> 00:32:06,070 ago and there are there big that they've 871 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:09,040 gone mainstream so you see how you know 872 00:32:12,690 --> 00:32:11,110 it works slowly and on the on the 873 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:12,700 individual level people disagree and 874 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:13,810 there are arguments and there's 875 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:17,770 controversy but the good thing is the 876 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:19,930 truth leaks out the right way leaks out 877 00:32:25,980 --> 00:32:21,850 and that's how we move forward oh that's 878 00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:25,990 a huge leap of faith well at the year it 879 00:32:30,540 --> 00:32:27,910 just is I mean you take that same 880 00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:30,550 scenario and i love that that chapter in 881 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:32,080 that example because i think it 882 00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:34,450 illustrates so many points but you know 883 00:32:37,620 --> 00:32:36,340 there's a number of people that I've 884 00:32:39,630 --> 00:32:37,630 interviewed really some of the top 885 00:32:42,450 --> 00:32:39,640 consciousness researchers in the world 886 00:32:43,890 --> 00:32:42,460 and there's a completely different 887 00:32:46,340 --> 00:32:43,900 hurry about consciousness since we 888 00:32:48,690 --> 00:32:46,350 really don't know how consciousness is 889 00:32:51,030 --> 00:32:48,700 created whether it's created in the 890 00:32:53,010 --> 00:32:51,040 brain or whether it's just reflect 891 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:53,020 through the brain is like a receiver 892 00:32:57,330 --> 00:32:54,970 transceiver that somehow tuning into 893 00:32:59,460 --> 00:32:57,340 consciousness but the best evidence we 894 00:33:01,800 --> 00:32:59,470 have is some of the evidence you 895 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:01,810 stumbled across in your demonology 896 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:03,850 experiment but when you take that into 897 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:05,770 the lab or clinically you look at 898 00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:07,690 near-death experience or you look at 899 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:09,760 terminal lucidity all these things have 900 00:33:14,670 --> 00:33:11,230 been done in hospitals and they say hey 901 00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:14,680 well clearly our relationship between 902 00:33:19,170 --> 00:33:16,780 brain and consciousness isn't what we 903 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:19,180 think it is is it isn't this one to one 904 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:20,770 thing or you just look at there's a 905 00:33:26,540 --> 00:33:23,370 bunch of good research done in the UK on 906 00:33:30,150 --> 00:33:26,550 psychedelics so silly Simon you know and 907 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:30,160 we give somebody a bunch of heroic dose 908 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:32,410 of psilocybin to use a terrorist mckenna 909 00:33:37,050 --> 00:33:34,810 term and their brain is supposed to be 910 00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:37,060 firing off like crazy because they're 911 00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:39,310 having this incredibly hyper lucid 912 00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:41,350 experience and we find the opposite we 913 00:33:45,180 --> 00:33:43,150 find that the brain is shutting down in 914 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:45,190 different parts as if it's tuning into 915 00:33:48,660 --> 00:33:46,930 some consciousness and from the outside 916 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:48,670 I don't need to sell you that whole 917 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:50,770 thing I just need to cut it out that's 918 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:52,330 interesting but I just need to come back 919 00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:54,850 and point out what would that paradigm 920 00:34:01,620 --> 00:33:58,960 shift mean to that whole debate that you 921 00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:01,630 were just kind of reporting on it would 922 00:34:05,220 --> 00:34:03,070 just throw it in the dustbin of history 923 00:34:07,460 --> 00:34:05,230 and the dustbin of science and say well 924 00:34:09,660 --> 00:34:07,470 those those guys thought that 925 00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:09,670 consciousness was a product of the brain 926 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:11,350 so they're arguing two different things 927 00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:13,450 about the brain but it isn't about the 928 00:34:18,150 --> 00:34:16,510 brain it's about this other aspect of 929 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:18,160 you know you'd mentioned sheldrick it's 930 00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:20,410 something akin to some filled out their 931 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:22,030 field of energy whatever the answer 932 00:34:25,620 --> 00:34:24,370 would be what's the old analogy of you 933 00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:25,630 know you're climbing the ladder of 934 00:34:29,010 --> 00:34:27,310 knowledge but you're leaned up against 935 00:34:31,830 --> 00:34:29,020 the wrong wall so it's never going to 936 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:31,840 work I mean I think we have to consider 937 00:34:37,710 --> 00:34:35,410 that we're not going to get there from 938 00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:37,720 here with the methods and the tools that 939 00:34:42,090 --> 00:34:39,250 we have in place what are your thoughts 940 00:34:44,910 --> 00:34:42,100 on that well I mean my toes and I said 941 00:34:46,830 --> 00:34:44,920 not right now I mean with the victor 942 00:34:51,180 --> 00:34:46,840 hotel roof of Sheldrake kind of 943 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:51,190 experience had a consciousness that that 944 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:53,050 kind of level of neuroscience is 945 00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:54,490 extremely complex and when you drill 946 00:34:57,870 --> 00:34:55,990 down into the arguments between the 947 00:34:59,580 --> 00:34:57,880 we believe that in the non-local ideas 948 00:35:01,470 --> 00:34:59,590 and they believe in the Middle East acai 949 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:01,480 Diaz it very quickly becomes far too 950 00:35:05,940 --> 00:35:03,730 complex for the layman to understand and 951 00:35:06,990 --> 00:35:05,950 you end up I mean my experience of like 952 00:35:08,609 --> 00:35:07,000 sufficient looking through the skeptic 953 00:35:09,810 --> 00:35:08,619 kind of versus believer forums is that 954 00:35:13,350 --> 00:35:09,820 you get the sense that people are 955 00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:13,360 arguing about very advanced statistical 956 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:15,190 methods that actually they have no idea 957 00:35:18,090 --> 00:35:16,450 about what they're doing is picking 958 00:35:19,710 --> 00:35:18,100 sides and picking an XP you know what we 959 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:19,720 do we pick an expert down we picked the 960 00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:22,330 professor that argues for our case so 961 00:35:26,609 --> 00:35:24,910 but my other thought about that goes 962 00:35:28,350 --> 00:35:26,619 back to eyes there was a chapter that I 963 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:28,360 cheated on history and it was about 964 00:35:33,570 --> 00:35:31,110 Holocaust deniers and there was a quote 965 00:35:36,980 --> 00:35:33,580 from professor Deborah Libby staff who 966 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:36,990 is somebody who has kind of agitated 967 00:35:41,070 --> 00:35:39,490 against and not about Holocaust and now 968 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:41,080 before and she was writing about this 969 00:35:48,030 --> 00:35:44,290 guy davidr Venus British historian who 970 00:35:52,050 --> 00:35:48,040 is kind of defend defended Hitler and he 971 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:52,060 argues that Hitler was a hidden order of 972 00:35:56,190 --> 00:35:53,170 course still he knew nothing about the 973 00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:56,200 Holocaust and he's the main one of a peg 974 00:36:00,570 --> 00:35:58,690 of his the evidence for this he says is 975 00:36:02,130 --> 00:36:00,580 that there isn't a document there isn't 976 00:36:05,660 --> 00:36:02,140 in her that kind of magic bullet 977 00:36:07,590 --> 00:36:05,670 document where he's shine saying yes I I 978 00:36:09,390 --> 00:36:07,600 agree with all because i order the 979 00:36:10,970 --> 00:36:09,400 Holocaust and what Deborah lippstadt 980 00:36:13,349 --> 00:36:10,980 said was that that you know in his 981 00:36:15,390 --> 00:36:13,359 historians we don't look for the magic 982 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:15,400 bullet we look for a convergence or a 983 00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:17,410 nexus of evidence and I love that quote 984 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:19,750 because it speaks to me for the brain 985 00:36:24,420 --> 00:36:22,050 kind of wars debate as well I think 986 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:24,430 there can be a million group with 987 00:36:27,810 --> 00:36:26,290 Sheldrake's but things are so emotional 988 00:36:28,770 --> 00:36:27,820 in that kind of fear of science that 989 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:28,780 they're never going to get anywhere 990 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:30,130 they're always going to be ignored no 991 00:36:35,460 --> 00:36:32,530 matter how sound their evidence seems I 992 00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:35,470 think if there is that you know if we do 993 00:36:39,630 --> 00:36:37,119 find the answer to consciousness isn't 994 00:36:41,130 --> 00:36:39,640 is no material is non-local that 995 00:36:42,990 --> 00:36:41,140 evidence is gas is going to have to come 996 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:43,000 from a different part of science from a 997 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:44,170 different you know there's gonna have to 998 00:36:48,990 --> 00:36:46,450 be a big breakthrough a discovery in 999 00:36:50,340 --> 00:36:49,000 some other area for this to be taken 1000 00:36:53,010 --> 00:36:50,350 seriously that's my own personal 1001 00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:53,020 feelings you know I you know maybe I'm 1002 00:36:57,450 --> 00:36:55,540 naive but I do think I do think if it's 1003 00:36:59,700 --> 00:36:57,460 true though consciousness is non-local 1004 00:37:02,099 --> 00:36:59,710 we'll get there may not be in my life 1005 00:37:03,540 --> 00:37:02,109 for your lifetime Alex unfortunately but 1006 00:37:05,730 --> 00:37:03,550 we'll get there it's kind of inevitable 1007 00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:05,740 but you know at the moment is just too 1008 00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:08,800 emotional and the people who are arguing 1009 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:09,310 for it 1010 00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:12,610 just to see if there's not enough people 1011 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:14,470 and and you know and they're easily 1012 00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,330 disparaged by this kind of very radical 1013 00:37:20,790 --> 00:37:18,640 politicized community of skeptics we 1014 00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:20,800 have at the moment well how has your 1015 00:37:26,940 --> 00:37:24,400 work changed you I mean changed you kind 1016 00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:26,950 of in some of these fundamental beliefs 1017 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:28,750 may be fundamental is too strong of a 1018 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:30,370 word but I mean I can think you know 1019 00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:32,890 I've been 250 shows and now wrote this 1020 00:37:37,230 --> 00:37:34,720 little book but I can think of a dozen 1021 00:37:41,340 --> 00:37:37,240 ways that I just was like wow you know I 1022 00:37:42,780 --> 00:37:41,350 used to think that now i think this what 1023 00:37:44,340 --> 00:37:42,790 has been the process like for you 1024 00:37:46,050 --> 00:37:44,350 because you've been right in there on 1025 00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:46,060 the front line with this stuff and i 1026 00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:48,400 know you you take it in personally what 1027 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:50,590 are some ways that you've changed when i 1028 00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,510 was in my teenage years I was with a 1029 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:54,640 classic angry skeptic kind of guy you 1030 00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:55,930 know I was angry my parents for being 1031 00:37:59,580 --> 00:37:58,210 Catholic I was angry Christians in 1032 00:38:01,260 --> 00:37:59,590 general for being so stupid and for 1033 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:01,270 causing all the wars and it's actually 1034 00:38:06,450 --> 00:38:04,330 been a journey of again humility what 1035 00:38:09,180 --> 00:38:06,460 happens when you go and meet these 1036 00:38:10,740 --> 00:38:09,190 people with an open mind is it a bit 1037 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:10,750 wish before you've met them you think 1038 00:38:16,410 --> 00:38:13,050 they're idiots or their hateful or their 1039 00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:16,420 you know whatever you believe what 19 1040 00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:18,040 Center people believe about these people 1041 00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:19,240 and then you meet them and if you meet 1042 00:38:25,110 --> 00:38:23,470 them and sincerely and show a genuine 1043 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:25,120 interest in their story and trying to 1044 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:26,290 find out why they believe what they 1045 00:38:31,650 --> 00:38:29,050 believe even if you don't end up 1046 00:38:34,260 --> 00:38:31,660 agreeing with them you can understand 1047 00:38:37,020 --> 00:38:34,270 why how they've ended up where they are 1048 00:38:38,850 --> 00:38:37,030 you can understand you know the story of 1049 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:38,860 their lives a story of how they've got 1050 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:41,410 there and you leave much more empathetic 1051 00:38:45,810 --> 00:38:43,690 and that's actually a cover nicer place 1052 00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:45,820 because you leave less angry and I 1053 00:38:50,060 --> 00:38:47,560 suppose the main thing is just made me 1054 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:50,070 kind of less angry at other people I die 1055 00:38:53,340 --> 00:38:52,330 it wasn't until I got to the right at 1056 00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:53,350 the end of the amber said it was that 1057 00:38:58,650 --> 00:38:55,990 kind of occurred to me how weird it is 1058 00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:58,660 that when somebody disagrees with you 1059 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:00,880 when somebody has an opinion it isn't 1060 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:03,250 the same same as yours you react with 1061 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:06,010 anger you react like you can't rest 1062 00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:08,290 until you've kind of bash them doubt 1063 00:39:12,540 --> 00:39:10,600 you've changed the shape of their brain 1064 00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:12,550 so it mimics yours then what is that 1065 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:15,340 it's weird but we're all like it you 1066 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:17,650 know we all we all have those buttons 1067 00:39:22,260 --> 00:39:20,410 pushed and it's just you know it's very 1068 00:39:22,620 --> 00:39:22,270 human insecurities that we have to have 1069 00:39:24,269 --> 00:39:22,630 everyone 1070 00:39:26,430 --> 00:39:24,279 surrounding us agreeing with us at all 1071 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:26,440 times otherwise we feel very unnerved 1072 00:39:30,450 --> 00:39:28,690 very anxious and I'm less like that now 1073 00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:30,460 I mean I'm not cured I'll never be 1074 00:39:36,299 --> 00:39:32,079 curing I'm still here and buy it you 1075 00:39:38,849 --> 00:39:36,309 know I am less liable to respond with 1076 00:39:41,099 --> 00:39:38,859 anger if somebody doesn't agree with me 1077 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:41,109 you know I can I get it now and I get it 1078 00:39:46,859 --> 00:39:43,930 because I'm just thinking I'm probably 1079 00:39:49,140 --> 00:39:46,869 just as you know deluded as you are you 1080 00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:49,150 know it's funny I think of the story of 1081 00:39:55,529 --> 00:39:51,910 the famous flim-flam artist the guy who 1082 00:39:58,559 --> 00:39:55,539 was the story behind the catch me if you 1083 00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:58,569 can movie who went running to personated 1084 00:40:03,509 --> 00:40:00,160 people and past all these bad checks and 1085 00:40:04,980 --> 00:40:03,519 they had him on the big talk show here 1086 00:40:07,319 --> 00:40:04,990 in the United States Johnny Carson's 1087 00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:07,329 late night show and he said you know how 1088 00:40:11,279 --> 00:40:08,529 do you do it how do you make these 1089 00:40:13,289 --> 00:40:11,289 people believe you and he said you know 1090 00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:13,299 the most powerful thing that I found is 1091 00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:16,240 to disagree with someone strongly and 1092 00:40:22,019 --> 00:40:18,880 get into this big argument and then sit 1093 00:40:24,329 --> 00:40:22,029 back thoughtfully and go you know after 1094 00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:24,339 I think about it I think you're right 1095 00:40:31,170 --> 00:40:27,609 you've changed my mind maybe that's the 1096 00:40:33,690 --> 00:40:31,180 most powerful thing for us to feel like 1097 00:40:35,069 --> 00:40:33,700 we've changed somebody's mind we've won 1098 00:40:37,319 --> 00:40:35,079 them over and I just have to laugh 1099 00:40:38,910 --> 00:40:37,329 because I mean I can relate to what 1100 00:40:40,829 --> 00:40:38,920 you're talking about I can relate to 1101 00:40:42,809 --> 00:40:40,839 that did the anger in the need and the 1102 00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:42,819 want to kind of show somebody the truth 1103 00:40:46,769 --> 00:40:44,470 and gosh darn it you got to believe it I 1104 00:40:50,249 --> 00:40:46,779 wonder what that is about us that has 1105 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:50,259 this need to kind of show people the 1106 00:40:54,150 --> 00:40:52,930 light I mean but so many of us had they 1107 00:40:56,009 --> 00:40:54,160 make it think if it's actually something 1108 00:40:57,089 --> 00:40:56,019 very if you really think about it me 1109 00:40:58,589 --> 00:40:57,099 there's something very aggressive about 1110 00:41:01,559 --> 00:40:58,599 it it looks like an act of violence 1111 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:01,569 comes to you with a different worldview 1112 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:03,970 and you want to reach into their kind of 1113 00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:07,210 brain and you know rearrange their walls 1114 00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:09,910 you know it's it's it's a really odd 1115 00:41:14,190 --> 00:41:12,730 thing and you know you notice that you 1116 00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:14,200 know there are certain personality types 1117 00:41:18,660 --> 00:41:16,720 who in here where I you know I met I 1118 00:41:22,589 --> 00:41:18,670 spend time with James Randi I spend time 1119 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:22,599 with david irving the historian who you 1120 00:41:25,829 --> 00:41:23,890 know I've been obviously you're born 1121 00:41:27,660 --> 00:41:25,839 aware of Sheamus Randy's million-dollar 1122 00:41:29,220 --> 00:41:27,670 challenge what made me chuckle was that 1123 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:29,230 David everything once had I think was a 1124 00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:31,690 500 pound challenge to anybody that 1125 00:41:35,279 --> 00:41:32,710 could prove they hit the road with 1126 00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:35,289 Holocaust or is it my 5000 pound 1127 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:36,400 challenge I mean 1128 00:41:43,529 --> 00:41:39,490 at John McKay is a creationist these 1129 00:41:45,870 --> 00:41:43,539 angry men who had gathered bands of 1130 00:41:48,930 --> 00:41:45,880 hugely loyal people around them and just 1131 00:41:50,730 --> 00:41:48,940 had that charisma there was something 1132 00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:50,740 about the personalities of these people 1133 00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:53,920 that they were obsessed with this 1134 00:41:58,529 --> 00:41:56,440 mission they were completely lost in 1135 00:42:00,990 --> 00:41:58,539 this idea that they were right and 1136 00:42:04,140 --> 00:42:01,000 everybody else was wrong and you know 1137 00:42:06,930 --> 00:42:04,150 that there had no no ability to accept 1138 00:42:08,910 --> 00:42:06,940 any kind of criticism or except for a 1139 00:42:10,529 --> 00:42:08,920 moment that they're wrong and you know 1140 00:42:12,980 --> 00:42:10,539 we're all like this to a certain extent 1141 00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:12,990 but there is a certain personality type 1142 00:42:18,029 --> 00:42:16,180 which is really like this elite's a lot 1143 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:18,039 and these people are the people have 1144 00:42:22,559 --> 00:42:21,490 become famous you think they're kind of 1145 00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:22,569 had this kind of cult of personality 1146 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:25,510 gather around it yeah well it's it's 1147 00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:27,490 just an excellent bodywork and there's 1148 00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:29,440 other books by will that you're 1149 00:42:35,279 --> 00:42:30,910 certainly going to want to check out 1150 00:42:40,799 --> 00:42:35,289 there all at will store that's wi ll st 1151 00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:40,809 0 RR dot com or dot co uk but will it's 1152 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:43,150 been great having you on thanks so much 1153 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:45,130 and best of luck with all your work is 1154 00:42:47,789 --> 00:42:46,450 there anything else I'm sorry is there 1155 00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:47,799 anything else we should talk about our 1156 00:42:51,779 --> 00:42:49,359 stuff that's coming up for you do you 1157 00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:51,789 have anything new that's coming out well 1158 00:42:54,779 --> 00:42:53,440 I mean I'm about to start work on the 1159 00:42:56,579 --> 00:42:54,789 next books but that's going to be he's 1160 00:42:57,839 --> 00:42:56,589 gonna be a few years to that that comes 1161 00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:57,849 out but that'sthat's got that about the 1162 00:43:02,720 --> 00:42:59,680 self so I'm going further into this kind 1163 00:43:05,460 --> 00:43:02,730 of idea of the self is kind of hero of 1164 00:43:07,650 --> 00:43:05,470 our story so I have no idea where that 1165 00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:07,660 that journeys gonna take me yet so kind 1166 00:43:11,789 --> 00:43:10,480 of nervous and excited about out of the 1167 00:43:13,740 --> 00:43:11,799 moment is that how you get when you 1168 00:43:15,870 --> 00:43:13,750 start these projects kind of kind of 1169 00:43:17,099 --> 00:43:15,880 nervous because you don't know where it 1170 00:43:20,099 --> 00:43:17,109 is going to take you and how it is going 1171 00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:20,109 to change you yeah I know I just be mad 1172 00:43:24,269 --> 00:43:21,760 I mean you've written up the sheer 1173 00:43:27,150 --> 00:43:24,279 amount of work you can see in front of 1174 00:43:28,589 --> 00:43:27,160 you and how awfully it might it might go 1175 00:43:31,470 --> 00:43:28,599 wrong if you know if you don't already 1176 00:43:32,970 --> 00:43:31,480 are so that is that too best of luck 1177 00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:32,980 with all that and thanks again for 1178 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:35,710 joining me pleasure thank you Alex 1179 00:43:40,529 --> 00:43:38,170 thanks again the world store for joining 1180 00:43:42,569 --> 00:43:40,539 me today on skeptic Oh one question I 1181 00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:42,579 guess I'd have to tee up from this 1182 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:45,760 interview and that has to do with how do 1183 00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:48,490 we check ourselves i guess you'd say you 1184 00:43:53,609 --> 00:43:50,230 know will makes a point in his book 1185 00:43:55,859 --> 00:43:53,619 about how emotion can cause folks to run 1186 00:43:58,109 --> 00:43:55,869 wild with ideas that when we step back 1187 00:44:00,840 --> 00:43:58,119 and look at them as a culture as a group 1188 00:44:03,210 --> 00:44:00,850 say wow how do people get in those kind 1189 00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:03,220 of positions how do you know when you're 1190 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:06,640 going over the top on a subject or how 1191 00:44:10,859 --> 00:44:08,650 do you see that happening with other 1192 00:44:14,190 --> 00:44:10,869 people when we see people cross over 1193 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:14,200 what we perceive as the crazy line that 1194 00:44:18,060 --> 00:44:15,850 I think for most of us it's a little 1195 00:44:21,870 --> 00:44:18,070 baffling like wow how did they get there 1196 00:44:24,420 --> 00:44:21,880 so let's try and unravel that what is 1197 00:44:26,730 --> 00:44:24,430 your process for checking yourself and 1198 00:44:29,609 --> 00:44:26,740 what do you recommend for other people 1199 00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:29,619 to keep from going too far with these 1200 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:33,520 topics of course the place to voice your 1201 00:44:39,380 --> 00:44:35,770 opinion to share your thoughts on that 1202 00:44:44,609 --> 00:44:39,390 is through the skeptical website at ske 1203 00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:44,619 pti KO kaam from there you can join our 1204 00:44:48,810 --> 00:44:46,480 forum and join the discussion there 1205 00:44:51,630 --> 00:44:48,820 leave a comment directly on the website 1206 00:44:55,470 --> 00:44:51,640 or connect with me personally through 1207 00:44:58,290 --> 00:44:55,480 Facebook or email I do want to thank all 1208 00:45:00,540 --> 00:44:58,300 of you who in response to the last 1209 00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:00,550 episode of skeptic Oh went out and 1210 00:45:05,220 --> 00:45:02,710 bought my book why science is wrong 1211 00:45:07,830 --> 00:45:05,230 about almost everything it was really 1212 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:07,840 kind of exciting to see that Amazon 1213 00:45:14,370 --> 00:45:11,410 ranking spiked up from the millions into 1214 00:45:16,170 --> 00:45:14,380 the I don't know it got to like 30,000 1215 00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:16,180 or something for a brief period which 1216 00:45:21,930 --> 00:45:19,390 was kind of neat kind of fun to see so 1217 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:21,940 thank you for that anyone who is 1218 00:45:26,940 --> 00:45:24,250 interested in the book it is now 1219 00:45:29,220 --> 00:45:26,950 available on Kindle as well you can find 1220 00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:29,230 it on Amazon and several people asked 1221 00:45:33,690 --> 00:45:31,119 for that and I think that's kind of 1222 00:45:35,970 --> 00:45:33,700 essential the kindle version of it so 1223 00:45:37,830 --> 00:45:35,980 that's out there so that's going to do 1224 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:37,840 it for this episode I have a number of 1225 00:45:44,460 --> 00:45:41,050 great shows coming up we'll get to them